Patent Anatomy: What’s in a patent?

What’s actually in a patent? What can you learn from reading one? Where do you even find them? For answers to these critical questions and more, I sat down with Patently Strategic regulars – David Cohen, Principal at Cohen Sciences and Ashley Sloat, President and Director of Patent Strategy here at Aurora. In our discussion, we break down the key anatomy, cut through the terminology, and provide tips on how you can use this information for your competitive advantage.

Patenting can be such an essential part of early startup years, but it’s a very complex domain, with loads of special vocabulary, and all of that can make it seem less accessible than it was really designed to be. In putting the questions together for the Q&A with Ashley and David, I quickly realized that, had I had the answers and this context much sooner in my own journey into this world, a lot of things would have made a lot more sense much earlier.

This is a guided tour, intended to reduce this barrier of entry, unlock for you one of the greatest libraries in the world, and help set you up with clear eyes going into your own patent journey. The tour is done through the anatomical lens of the most intrinsic and tangible piece of the process – the patent application. It’s through the study of a patent's structure and parts, that you’ll quickly begin to see more clearly how the broader world of patenting works!

** Resources **

* Show Notes: https://www.aurorapatents.com/blog/new-podcast-patent-anatomy

* USPTO: https://www.uspto.gov

* Public PAIR: https://portal.uspto.gov/pair/PublicPair

* Google Patents: https://patents.google.com

** Follow Aurora Consulting **

* Home: https://www.aurorapatents.com/

* Twitter: https://twitter.com/AuroraPatents

* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/aurora-cg/

* Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/aurorapatents/

* Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/aurorapatents/ 

And as always, thanks for listening! 

---
Note: The contents of this podcast do not constitute legal advice.

Transcript

WEBVTT

00:05.090 --> 00:08.494
Good day and welcome to the Patenting Strategic Podcast, where we discuss all things

00:08.532 --> 00:11.450
at the intersection of business, technology and patents.

00:11.570 --> 00:15.302
This podcast is a monthly discussion amongst experts in the field of patenting

00:15.386 --> 00:19.318
just for inventors, founders and IP professionals alike, established or

00:19.344 --> 00:22.574
aspiring. And in this month's episode, we explore patent

00:22.622 --> 00:25.910
anatomy. It's been said that the public body of patent literature

00:25.970 --> 00:29.534
is one of the great libraries of the world. What's actually in a patent?

00:29.642 --> 00:32.626
What can you learn from reading one? And where do you even find them in

00:32.628 --> 00:36.022
the first place for answers to these critical questions and more?

00:36.156 --> 00:39.662
I sat down with Patently Strategic regulars David Cohen, Principal of Cohen

00:39.686 --> 00:43.034
Sciences, and Ashley Sloat, President and director of Patent Strategy

00:43.082 --> 00:46.778
here at Aurora. In our discussion, we break down the key anatomy,

00:46.874 --> 00:50.650
cut through the terminology, and provide tips on how you can use this information

00:50.760 --> 00:54.746
for your competitive advantage. All right. David Ashley,

00:54.758 --> 00:58.318
thanks so much for joining me today. Really, looking forward

00:58.344 --> 01:02.018
to this episode patenting can be such an essential

01:02.174 --> 01:05.842
part of the early startup years, but it's admittedly a

01:05.856 --> 01:09.182
very complex domain has a lot of special vocabulary,

01:09.326 --> 01:12.550
and all of that can make it seem a little bit less

01:12.600 --> 01:15.120
accessible than it was designed to be.

01:16.110 --> 01:19.198
And then in putting these questions together, for the two of you,

01:19.344 --> 01:22.642
kind of had an epiphany. And it was that if I had the answers to

01:22.656 --> 01:26.542
these questions much sooner, in my own, foray into this world, that a lot

01:26.556 --> 01:30.262
of things would have made a lot more sense much earlier on,

01:30.396 --> 01:33.518
and I was a bit hesitant. We were a bit hesitant

01:33.554 --> 01:36.622
calling this one patent Anatomy, because I don't know what

01:36.636 --> 01:40.342
the two of you, but the only thing I wanted out of my anatomy and

01:40.356 --> 01:42.000
physiology class was me.

01:43.170 --> 01:46.918
But it

01:46.944 --> 01:50.510
really is through the study and the structure of the patents,

01:50.570 --> 01:54.370
specifically the applications in their parts that you begin

01:54.420 --> 01:57.958
to more clearly see how things come together and how

01:57.984 --> 02:02.014
the world of patenting works that ended up kind of being a nice

02:02.052 --> 02:04.140
surprise for me in this one.

02:04.890 --> 02:09.060
So before we start diving into the actual

02:09.450 --> 02:12.586
application anatomy, I think it makes sense to start

02:12.648 --> 02:15.840
a little bit, zoomed out with the application itself.

02:16.230 --> 02:19.690
Just so everyone's starting from the same place. What is

02:19.740 --> 02:23.400
a patent application? Okay, well,

02:23.850 --> 02:27.900
the ultimate goal of a patent application is

02:28.890 --> 02:32.926
to have a patent issued. And so the

02:32.988 --> 02:37.378
patent application is basically a

02:37.404 --> 02:41.218
letter to the patent office that describes the

02:41.244 --> 02:44.880
invention. And at the end,

02:45.270 --> 02:49.380
recites some claims that the

02:51.850 --> 02:54.614
inventor believes that he's entitled to.

02:54.712 --> 02:57.400
So that's the short answer.

02:57.790 --> 03:01.814
It's a letter to the patent office and the

03:01.852 --> 03:05.390
applicant. The inventor wants

03:05.440 --> 03:09.578
to get a patent, and he

03:09.604 --> 03:14.226
or she or they recite

03:14.298 --> 03:18.722
claims they believe they're entitled to. And then

03:18.796 --> 03:22.482
what ensues over a protracted

03:22.506 --> 03:26.582
period of time is a conversation between the

03:26.656 --> 03:30.520
patent office and examiner and the patent office and

03:31.690 --> 03:35.834
the applicant. And that

03:35.872 --> 03:39.458
process is called prosecution. So that's the

03:39.484 --> 03:42.760
short answer. So I'll just go on a bit

03:44.050 --> 03:47.390
a patent application. You want to get a patent? What's a patent?

03:48.490 --> 03:52.802
A patent is basically a

03:52.816 --> 03:56.738
deal between the applicants and the

03:56.824 --> 04:00.940
United States government, in which

04:01.270 --> 04:03.110
if the patent is issued,

04:05.050 --> 04:08.678
then the applicant gets a monopoly for

04:08.704 --> 04:12.470
a limited period of time on that

04:12.520 --> 04:15.878
invention. And the other half of the

04:15.964 --> 04:19.514
bargain is, of course, the applicant needs

04:19.552 --> 04:24.230
to disclose and describe his invention and

04:24.400 --> 04:28.120
basically make it available

04:28.510 --> 04:31.840
to the public. The purpose of this is to

04:33.610 --> 04:37.334
advance the welfare of the country. Right. You want the country

04:37.432 --> 04:40.442
to have access a

04:40.456 --> 04:41.500
matter of policy.

04:45.010 --> 04:49.250
You want the country to have to be able to use the

04:49.360 --> 04:52.650
technology that's being invented

04:52.710 --> 04:55.540
and that's in the interest of the country.

04:58.490 --> 05:02.782
So that's the deal, the government and this is in the Constitution.

05:02.926 --> 05:06.198
It's one of the explicitly there this

05:06.224 --> 05:10.518
is, I believe, from Thomas Jefferson. So the

05:10.544 --> 05:15.258
country says, okay, we'll give you a limited monopoly if

05:15.344 --> 05:19.280
and when you tell us all about it,

05:22.590 --> 05:26.294
there can be a bit of hesitancy there. Right. You've invented

05:26.342 --> 05:31.622
something clever, you think it's great and you're

05:31.646 --> 05:35.798
being asked to disclose it. So that's

05:35.834 --> 05:39.614
all part of the grand bargain. If memory serves,

05:39.662 --> 05:42.946
too. That's actually the only time

05:43.128 --> 05:46.390
the word right appears in the Constitution.

05:47.250 --> 05:53.114
And it's capitalized as

05:53.152 --> 05:56.270
rich given how far the Pennsylvania has fallen.

05:56.650 --> 06:00.434
Yeah. So it predates the Bill of Rights. It's the only

06:00.472 --> 06:03.582
time the word right was used in the Constitution, and it's capitalized.

06:03.666 --> 06:07.366
So clearly

06:07.498 --> 06:10.110
the founder saw this as something very significant.

06:11.030 --> 06:14.946
Right. Well, I mean, pounds have a history

06:15.008 --> 06:16.700
that precedes the United States.

06:18.650 --> 06:22.518
There's systems in Europe which

06:22.544 --> 06:25.882
are very similar. Of course, they didn't

06:25.906 --> 06:30.320
have a Congress. They had a King. But the basic idea was

06:30.890 --> 06:34.770
the same awarding a monopoly in order to encourage

06:35.870 --> 06:39.558
invention and technology coming forward.

06:39.704 --> 06:42.918
The idea being if without that protection, then someone else could

06:42.944 --> 06:46.914
come along and copy you and take away

06:46.952 --> 06:51.090
your market. And the inventor would

06:51.140 --> 06:52.950
be left in the cold.

06:54.170 --> 07:00.034
Yeah. I didn't know about it being capitalized in

07:00.072 --> 07:03.360
word, right. You can bold it, you can underline it,

07:04.590 --> 07:09.358
give it a color. You can make it italic anyway.

07:09.444 --> 07:13.440
I won't forget. Thank you, Josh. I'll use that again.

07:14.010 --> 07:17.700
Didn't know that. Yeah. Welcome.

07:18.090 --> 07:21.946
I think the other interesting part to note, too, in this

07:22.128 --> 07:25.474
patent application process or kind of what is

07:25.572 --> 07:29.158
a patent application, especially in the start up

07:29.184 --> 07:33.022
world, where it's more important, it gives companies

07:33.096 --> 07:36.418
the right to say patent pending. Now,

07:36.444 --> 07:41.066
of course, you don't want to go ahead and share those contents

07:41.138 --> 07:45.046
until they are published, unless you have some kind of

07:45.168 --> 07:48.886
defined relationship or something with the other group.

07:48.948 --> 07:52.538
But it allows you to kind of have that pending status,

07:52.574 --> 07:56.402
which can kind of be a badge of honor for companies and startups.

07:56.426 --> 07:59.400
And so I think that's really interesting. But again,

08:01.410 --> 08:05.290
there's a timeline to all of this. Right. There's upwards of

08:05.340 --> 08:09.614
18 months of secrecy where it's not published,

08:09.782 --> 08:13.538
and then after that, then it becomes published and then published

08:13.574 --> 08:16.898
again when it issues, and it will have the final claims

08:16.934 --> 08:20.414
at that time, the ones that have been granted as a result of prosecution

08:20.462 --> 08:24.442
that David was outlining. So I think that's also kind of important

08:24.516 --> 08:27.334
to know that there is kind of that secrecy period that also kind of gives

08:27.372 --> 08:30.838
you an advantage. And that's 18 months from

08:30.864 --> 08:34.560
your earliest date, right.

08:36.850 --> 08:40.660
I mean, this is interesting because the standard answer,

08:42.550 --> 08:46.430
why get a patent is just what I recited. Right. You get the monopoly

08:48.370 --> 08:52.118
and so on. But the

08:52.144 --> 08:55.310
timeline is quite protracted, right.

08:55.360 --> 08:58.934
Takes forever. And what happens much more

08:58.972 --> 09:02.918
quickly is the conversation with

09:03.064 --> 09:06.350
an investor or investors.

09:08.590 --> 09:12.234
I was thinking about this. The investor

09:12.282 --> 09:15.782
discussion is particularly important

09:15.916 --> 09:17.810
to startups.

09:21.290 --> 09:25.278
I mean, it's almost like an Advertisement, right. Okay. Here we are. It's a

09:25.304 --> 09:28.846
war dance. Look at what we did. You put out a Press release,

09:29.038 --> 09:31.580
and the point is to raise money,

09:32.450 --> 09:34.890
and without that money, you don't go anywhere.

09:36.590 --> 09:39.618
You don't go anywhere soon. I did want to

09:39.644 --> 09:42.366
kind of insert in there, too,

09:42.428 --> 09:46.530
that these ideas can't live in vacuums early

09:46.580 --> 09:50.974
on, especially in terms of talking to investors and trying to solicit

09:51.142 --> 09:54.486
potential very valuable feedback. But a lot of the people that

09:54.488 --> 09:58.006
you would talk to at that early stage, especially investors,

09:58.078 --> 10:01.950
are pretty hesitant about signing NDAs

10:02.630 --> 10:06.850
given the handcuffs that come with those. And so seeking

10:06.910 --> 10:09.750
out that application, especially provisional.

10:10.070 --> 10:13.758
Talk more about that later, too, really helps to give you

10:13.784 --> 10:17.394
some protection around being

10:17.432 --> 10:20.974
able to disclose your idea without risk of hopefully

10:21.022 --> 10:24.390
without mitigating idea, theft risk and also not

10:24.440 --> 10:27.810
shooting yourself in the foot around patentability later

10:27.860 --> 10:31.578
on up the road. And we talked about public disclosure quite a bit in

10:31.604 --> 10:34.340
past episodes recommend that folks check those out.

10:35.330 --> 10:38.842
All right. So we started kind of diving into this smidge

10:38.866 --> 10:42.898
in the last question. But right after what a patent

10:42.934 --> 10:46.302
application is, we should probably address

10:46.436 --> 10:49.686
who it's for. So over the course of its life,

10:49.808 --> 10:53.130
application is going to have multiple audiences, all with very

10:53.180 --> 10:56.958
different roles to play in different goals and consuming and

10:56.984 --> 11:00.282
interpreting that patent, who all might look at

11:00.296 --> 11:03.874
an application and why there's an investor

11:03.922 --> 11:07.590
component, and there's an examiner component,

11:07.970 --> 11:10.674
and those are going to be each individual is going to be looking at it

11:10.712 --> 11:13.520
to a different degree. Investors are probably higher level.

11:17.130 --> 11:20.878
What kind of protections is generally going to afford the company,

11:20.964 --> 11:24.142
the inventor, the technology, and the examiner with a

11:24.216 --> 11:28.370
much higher level of scrutiny because they need to assess it for various

11:28.550 --> 11:32.642
metrics based on the Patent Office rules and procedures.

11:32.786 --> 11:36.962
But then there's additional layers there. And that's

11:37.106 --> 11:41.014
the patent Trial and Appeal board that's important

11:41.112 --> 11:44.482
for appeal proceedings through prosecution or even

11:44.616 --> 11:48.780
post grant proceedings. And then there are the court system

11:49.590 --> 11:52.982
district Court, schedule, Circuit, maybe even Supreme

11:53.006 --> 11:56.498
Court in

11:56.524 --> 12:00.040
that draft. There's jurors, too.

12:02.110 --> 12:04.780
Yeah. You're talking to laypeople, right?

12:06.190 --> 12:09.698
Yeah. There's like multiple different layers there, if you want to think

12:09.724 --> 12:13.638
about your invention from an inverted triangle

12:13.674 --> 12:18.534
perspective, right. Broad and narrow. But also in identifying

12:18.702 --> 12:22.226
the problems that you're solving, and what are those solutions? And how do

12:22.228 --> 12:26.586
you describe those more generally, how do you describe them? More specifically,

12:26.778 --> 12:29.958
what are alternatives? What fields

12:29.994 --> 12:33.258
can different things be used in? And so it's

12:33.294 --> 12:36.602
kind of just thinking about it from all these different angles, from broad to

12:36.616 --> 12:39.794
narrow again and again and again to help. And same

12:39.832 --> 12:42.710
with how you would define terms, which I think we'll probably talk about later.

12:42.760 --> 12:46.202
But how you define what certain things mean

12:46.396 --> 12:50.550
in the application as well should be with that lens of investors

12:50.670 --> 12:54.330
versus examiner versus judges and jurors and courts

12:54.390 --> 12:58.218
and Ptabs. So there's lots of different readers, and it's

12:58.254 --> 13:01.478
not an easy thing to draft it to

13:01.504 --> 13:03.050
fit all of those narratives.

13:04.330 --> 13:07.718
Right. Add to this, too, because I think it's important for

13:07.744 --> 13:10.840
understanding some things that will come up in a bit and

13:12.010 --> 13:15.294
go with the government's ultimate goal of the patents

13:15.342 --> 13:19.394
being progressing, science and useful arts. It seems

13:19.432 --> 13:21.410
to me like the ultimate intended audience.

13:23.110 --> 13:26.606
Obviously, the Patent Office is huge. Investors are huge, potentially someday up

13:26.608 --> 13:30.378
the road towards a PTAB. But really the ultimate attendant audience

13:30.474 --> 13:34.226
is a person skilled in the art looking to build or build upon the idea.

13:34.348 --> 13:38.018
Correct. I'd say so. Right. I mean, that's what

13:38.044 --> 13:41.498
disclosure means. You want it to

13:41.524 --> 13:44.918
be accessible to the public. It is important to point

13:44.944 --> 13:48.642
out, though, too, that I

13:48.656 --> 13:52.050
don't want to sound snooty,

13:52.370 --> 13:55.014
but it shouldn't be dumbed down for anybody,

13:55.112 --> 13:58.674
though, because it still is meant for somebody of skill in the art.

13:58.832 --> 14:02.406
Right. So I think that's where the inverted triangle comes

14:02.468 --> 14:06.150
in, because it should be understandable by people

14:06.200 --> 14:09.522
generally in the public. But it really is geared towards somebody

14:09.596 --> 14:13.626
of skill in the art. So you don't want

14:13.688 --> 14:16.794
to have this a very complex mechanical device or

14:16.832 --> 14:20.238
complex software that you read it and you're like, how is

14:20.264 --> 14:23.922
this complex? It sounds like a mental process. It sounds like an abstract idea,

14:23.996 --> 14:28.354
which is what the patent office would say. So it's that understanding

14:28.402 --> 14:31.998
that you want there to be some level

14:32.024 --> 14:35.010
of understanding by jurors or lay people or something like that.

14:35.060 --> 14:38.622
But you also are still writing for somebody of skill in the

14:38.636 --> 14:42.298
art so that they can take it and build upon it. It blows

14:42.334 --> 14:45.762
me away a little bit, though, that it is written for someone skilled in the

14:45.776 --> 14:50.010
art, but it passes through so many hands

14:50.060 --> 14:54.258
along the way who potentially are not who have

14:54.284 --> 14:58.100
a pretty outsized impact on

14:58.550 --> 15:01.820
the ultimate validity of that thing.

15:02.390 --> 15:06.310
It's kind of crazy, right. That the ultimate audience isn't

15:06.370 --> 15:09.978
necessarily the gatekeeper of

15:10.064 --> 15:12.330
the things long term validity.

15:14.450 --> 15:18.330
Yeah. I mean, it's sort of impossible to do perfectly because

15:18.500 --> 15:22.054
you don't know which way it's going to go. As a patent

15:22.102 --> 15:25.700
writer, you do your best

15:27.230 --> 15:30.558
and you hope for the best. And there's lots of

15:30.584 --> 15:33.450
things that are unforeseeable.

15:34.850 --> 15:38.178
Another thing I

15:38.204 --> 15:41.998
think about this in

15:42.024 --> 15:45.734
a way, the patent literature is one of the great libraries

15:45.842 --> 15:47.700
of the world. Right.

15:49.650 --> 15:52.800
And it's free. It's really kind of amazing.

15:53.130 --> 15:55.750
There's this huge literature.

15:56.910 --> 16:00.298
Once you know how to search or you have someone searching for

16:00.324 --> 16:03.960
you, you can learn

16:04.770 --> 16:07.500
everything. Right. And it's free.

16:09.970 --> 16:13.562
The Library of Alexandria, right. I mean, it's kind of I

16:13.576 --> 16:16.900
think it's under appreciated, you know,

16:17.230 --> 16:20.740
the amount of knowledge that

16:21.130 --> 16:24.674
is stored in the

16:24.712 --> 16:27.340
collective patent literature. I mean, I include world.

16:28.630 --> 16:32.546
We're sort of focusing on the United States, but every country

16:32.608 --> 16:35.858
has its patent. I just wanted to sort

16:35.884 --> 16:40.098
of toss that in as a reflective

16:40.194 --> 16:43.302
comment and appreciation you don't

16:43.326 --> 16:46.758
really hear. Yeah. And actually, to build upon

16:46.794 --> 16:50.754
that. And to contrast that, David coming from the academic

16:50.802 --> 16:54.758
world myself, where because

16:54.784 --> 16:58.298
pants are the cutting edge in theory of technology. And so is academic research,

16:58.384 --> 17:02.450
right. Or research in general. But in the academic setting,

17:04.210 --> 17:07.886
it's different, right. Because in the academic setting, you're submitting your

17:07.948 --> 17:11.910
latest and greatest research, whatever to an academic Journal

17:12.030 --> 17:15.902
they're reviewing. It kind of like an examiner. And then, but then

17:15.916 --> 17:19.202
they charge you a ton of money, kind of not unlike the

17:19.216 --> 17:22.778
patent office, I guess, to publish it. But then

17:22.924 --> 17:26.946
it goes behind this pay wall that you can't get access to. Very few journals

17:27.018 --> 17:30.374
are freely accessible, right. Most of them put their

17:30.412 --> 17:33.866
content absolutely the content that I gave them behind

17:33.928 --> 17:37.898
the paywall, which was the point I can't even access it. Right. Whereas the

17:37.924 --> 17:41.282
patent, you're still paying money, somebody's still reviewing it

17:41.416 --> 17:45.662
like you said, it's out there and available. And just

17:45.736 --> 17:48.350
to second, Ashley's comment,

17:48.970 --> 17:52.850
all these academic journals, they cost millions of dollars.

17:52.960 --> 17:57.302
Right. And you

17:57.316 --> 18:01.050
can get access to them if you're in the University.

18:01.230 --> 18:02.800
But for the general public,

18:04.810 --> 18:08.020
all that is very difficult to get.

18:08.950 --> 18:09.700
Anyway,

18:13.730 --> 18:15.020
it's a great point,

18:17.210 --> 18:20.622
especially about being one of the great libraries of the

18:20.636 --> 18:24.478
world. And I think they also serve as a wonderful segue

18:24.514 --> 18:27.982
to our next question, which is for someone who's

18:28.006 --> 18:31.582
never looked at an application at a very high level, what kinds

18:31.606 --> 18:34.520
of things can I learn from a patent application?

18:35.630 --> 18:39.286
Well, one thing that I was going to say, which is relatively trivial.

18:39.358 --> 18:43.222
But if

18:43.236 --> 18:44.460
you look at that application,

18:46.410 --> 18:49.510
there's the standard fields. You'll see

18:49.560 --> 18:53.074
some of them on the front page. There's the

18:53.112 --> 18:57.000
inventors, it's their institution or their company.

18:58.770 --> 19:01.670
It's the title. It's the abstract. It's a picture.

19:01.730 --> 19:06.894
But frankly,

19:06.942 --> 19:10.310
one of the places to start is with the background,

19:11.710 --> 19:15.940
because the background is intended to

19:16.390 --> 19:21.026
Orient you. Is this invention fits within

19:21.208 --> 19:24.998
this background? Now you have to keep in mind this

19:25.024 --> 19:27.350
is the inventor's view of the background.

19:29.290 --> 19:33.254
It's not necessarily objective. It's how they want

19:33.292 --> 19:37.194
you to see it. But if you're looking for an easy entree,

19:37.362 --> 19:41.330
often it helps just to read the background because you're not going to get

19:41.380 --> 19:46.118
challenged. It's going to sort of set you up and

19:46.144 --> 19:49.190
then you sort of know where it's headed.

19:49.510 --> 19:53.542
But we've

19:53.566 --> 19:56.854
mentioned all these various fields before. There's the title,

19:56.902 --> 19:58.170
there's the abstract.

20:02.010 --> 20:05.338
If you think about it, a patent application is really just two

20:05.364 --> 20:08.640
things. It's words and pictures, right. Or words

20:09.090 --> 20:12.298
and data, and they

20:12.324 --> 20:16.838
should come together and fit and each be consistent

20:16.994 --> 20:20.674
with each other. The entire

20:20.772 --> 20:24.442
point. I mean, leaving aside investors and everything

20:24.516 --> 20:29.122
else. The entire point is to support the claims and

20:29.136 --> 20:32.962
the claims are found at the end and

20:33.156 --> 20:38.726
that's, you know, if you're really getting down

20:38.908 --> 20:42.650
into the weeds, you need to look at the claims there at the end

20:42.820 --> 20:45.938
and you sort of need to get, you know,

20:46.084 --> 20:50.114
you need to surrender to the strange language of

20:50.152 --> 20:55.294
claims that's

20:55.462 --> 20:58.950
the name of the game is what is being claimed.

20:59.270 --> 21:04.618
That's the territory that if

21:04.644 --> 21:08.234
the application is granted and the claims

21:08.282 --> 21:12.120
issue, then that's what the

21:12.510 --> 21:14.760
inventor has a monopoly on.

21:16.890 --> 21:20.460
Is that sufficient, Josh? Or should we drill down on anything

21:20.910 --> 21:24.300
more? I think that hits on a lot of it.

21:26.250 --> 21:31.282
The issue date is in there, right. Which that

21:31.296 --> 21:34.970
can help give a clue as to how long the patent could be enforced.

21:35.030 --> 21:38.182
Correct. There is

21:38.196 --> 21:42.074
the filing date, and then there's the issue date. So a patent

21:42.182 --> 21:45.970
term is calculated from the earliest

21:46.710 --> 21:50.340
nonprovisional filing date. So your provisional year is free.

21:50.850 --> 21:55.118
And so that's 20 years from that earliest non provisional

21:55.154 --> 21:58.558
filing date. And then the issue date is

21:58.584 --> 22:02.090
when the pen actually becomes enforceable.

22:02.270 --> 22:05.602
Right now. That doesn't mean that there are some different things where

22:05.676 --> 22:09.130
it might be enforceable earlier on. Like if it published

22:10.110 --> 22:13.874
with the same claim that it issued with. In theory,

22:14.042 --> 22:17.806
some damages can be go back to that publication time frame, but suffice it

22:17.808 --> 22:21.554
to say the issue date, the first date, it comes online for enforceability.

22:21.662 --> 22:25.574
Right. And so those two

22:25.612 --> 22:28.682
dates are important for understanding, because then also, if you

22:28.696 --> 22:32.790
calculate the rough expiration

22:32.850 --> 22:37.358
date, if you say January 1 of 2000,

22:37.504 --> 22:40.791
it's going to expire, generally speaking, January 1,

22:40.801 --> 22:44.162
2020, then you know when it's going to expire. So then you

22:44.176 --> 22:47.150
know, when potentially it's not a problem anymore.

22:48.430 --> 22:52.154
Right. So we've got the when of the dates. We've got

22:52.192 --> 22:55.266
the who of inventors who are involved

22:55.338 --> 22:59.238
and ownership, which is potentially not necessarily

22:59.394 --> 23:02.642
the same thing. Any prior art

23:02.656 --> 23:05.990
that was dug up is going to be in there drawings. Of course you said

23:06.160 --> 23:09.280
it's words and drawings. And then the words.

23:10.210 --> 23:13.602
Ultimately, that written description aimed

23:13.626 --> 23:16.754
at enabling one in the skilled in the art

23:16.852 --> 23:20.838
to be able to I believe the legal

23:20.874 --> 23:24.510
language is reduced. The idea to practice without undue experimentation.

23:24.630 --> 23:28.274
Is that right? It's close enough. Right. You want to practice you could just say

23:28.312 --> 23:31.420
practice, practice the invention. Yeah.

23:34.730 --> 23:37.880
It's like the idea recipe, right? Yes.

23:41.610 --> 23:45.302
Where the recipe says it could be a teaspoon. It could be a cup.

23:45.446 --> 23:48.190
But it might prefer to be a tablespoon,

23:50.190 --> 23:53.110
a pinch, a pinch of salt.

23:55.510 --> 23:58.840
The competitive advantage of ambiguity. Yes.

23:59.890 --> 24:03.302
Right. All right. So let's flip that last one around.

24:03.376 --> 24:07.194
Then what kinds of important patent related

24:07.242 --> 24:10.060
details might not find in an application?

24:11.230 --> 24:14.990
Things that could be useful. Maybe things I would expect to see that aren't.

24:15.490 --> 24:19.086
Yes, it's true. The patent application or the published

24:19.098 --> 24:21.640
patent stuff doesn't tell you everything.

24:23.830 --> 24:27.698
For example, if you really want to

24:27.724 --> 24:31.482
know who's involved

24:31.566 --> 24:36.078
and who said what and the

24:36.104 --> 24:39.834
whole nine yards, then you simply need to go to another

24:39.992 --> 24:44.314
database. And there's something that every patent practitioner

24:44.362 --> 24:47.674
uses at least once a day. And that's another patent

24:47.722 --> 24:51.010
office database. It's called Pair.

24:51.190 --> 24:54.020
That's an acronym. P-A-I-R.

24:54.710 --> 24:58.750
Patent application information retrieval.

24:58.930 --> 25:01.760
So that also is free.

25:03.470 --> 25:06.682
It's less easy to search if you're

25:06.766 --> 25:07.400
using,

25:11.130 --> 25:15.854
we will mention a few websites and anyone listening.

25:16.022 --> 25:19.138
I mean, you can try to take notes, but if you really want to get

25:19.164 --> 25:23.218
the address, you can email Josh and

25:23.304 --> 25:26.990
he'll send you the address. I will include

25:27.050 --> 25:30.526
all reference links in the show notes as well. So they'll be right at

25:30.528 --> 25:33.300
our. Oh, okay. Yeah.

25:36.010 --> 25:39.398
There's lots of things that I mean,

25:39.424 --> 25:43.710
in a way, the patent office doesn't really care so much about who the assignee

25:43.770 --> 25:48.762
is and

25:48.836 --> 25:52.434
owners of a patent, they're not really bound to

25:52.472 --> 25:56.286
tell the patent office if they've licensed it or

25:56.468 --> 25:57.620
sold it.

26:00.330 --> 26:03.778
Assigning information, by way of

26:03.804 --> 26:07.378
example, is something that difficult

26:07.464 --> 26:11.518
to know without calling up the inventor or

26:11.544 --> 26:16.334
the company and just asking them that's

26:16.382 --> 26:18.660
lucid. Now one of the other things. Okay.

26:19.290 --> 26:22.378
Yeah. They're a paid database. I mean,

26:22.404 --> 26:26.410
I subscribe to a relatively inexpensive database and

26:26.520 --> 26:30.566
you'll get other you can find out. Are the maintenance.

26:30.758 --> 26:33.934
Yeah. Maintenance fees. I mean, this is another thing

26:33.972 --> 26:37.222
that people think about, but you have to

26:37.236 --> 26:44.850
pay the patent office to keep your issued

26:44.910 --> 26:48.182
application alive. So those are

26:48.196 --> 26:50.510
called maintenance fees. Has it expired?

26:52.750 --> 26:56.046
You can get that on a number of different basis. The current owner?

26:56.178 --> 27:00.398
Yeah. The current owner, like I said, can be hard to find

27:00.544 --> 27:04.298
usually. I mean, if you really want to know, you probably would need to go

27:04.324 --> 27:08.310
to one of these massive databases like Lexusnexis.

27:08.370 --> 27:11.886
They probably would be the best source. Has it been invalidated,

27:11.958 --> 27:16.360
enforced, licensed or sold? You could probably find that

27:16.750 --> 27:20.498
in one of these massive databases. I guess if I could synthesize that

27:20.524 --> 27:24.880
down, it sort of sounds to me like the application is

27:25.390 --> 27:29.070
frozen in time of publication

27:29.130 --> 27:30.110
or Issuance.

27:33.530 --> 27:36.680
You don't know what happened later, right? You don't know what happened later.

27:37.310 --> 27:40.450
Exactly. Has it been kept active? Has it expired?

27:40.510 --> 27:43.578
Who currently owns it? Invalidated enforced licensing any of those

27:43.604 --> 27:46.100
kinds of post publication, post Issuance things,

27:46.670 --> 27:49.880
not going to find it in there, right?

27:50.450 --> 27:54.970
Yeah. Applications and publications. They're frozen

27:55.150 --> 27:58.086
in time. They're true. At that moment,

27:58.208 --> 28:01.902
they could change the very next day, especially like

28:02.036 --> 28:05.814
assigning who owns it is the thing which is probably the most

28:05.912 --> 28:09.260
elusive. Yes.

28:10.070 --> 28:14.218
And I guess we just recently used these words. But one point of confusion

28:14.254 --> 28:18.202
that we often see, especially among inventors newer

28:18.226 --> 28:22.254
to the process, is the difference between a published application and

28:22.292 --> 28:25.530
an issued patent. Could either of you speak to this distinction?

28:26.630 --> 28:28.220
Well, like Ashley said,

28:31.470 --> 28:35.158
okay. You can look at the it's true. This is a point

28:35.184 --> 28:39.094
of confusion, and you sort of need to look at the upper right

28:39.132 --> 28:43.118
hand corner of the front page, and it will either say patent

28:43.154 --> 28:46.678
number or it will say patent application

28:46.824 --> 28:49.354
number. Something like that. It'll tell you.

28:49.512 --> 28:53.042
And actually the quickest visual

28:53.126 --> 28:56.954
queue as to whether it's a published

28:57.002 --> 29:00.540
application or an issued patent is to look at the number.

29:04.230 --> 29:07.918
The published applications always start with a year. So if the

29:07.944 --> 29:10.990
number starts with 2017,

29:13.410 --> 29:16.500
then that's an application,

29:19.030 --> 29:22.000
the only difference between a public. Go ahead.

29:22.810 --> 29:27.530
I think the additional difference is just one

29:27.580 --> 29:31.322
fluid and one static to some degree. Right. In a

29:31.336 --> 29:35.270
patent application, you can't change the figures

29:35.710 --> 29:39.258
beyond the scope of the original application and the specification.

29:39.354 --> 29:42.820
But you can change the claims in the issue.

29:43.330 --> 29:46.802
The claims are static. Right. They're done. They've gone

29:46.816 --> 29:51.074
through the process. They've gone through examination. So one

29:51.112 --> 29:54.270
is still in that bartering conversation process. The publication

29:54.330 --> 29:57.340
is and then the issue just kind of post that process.

29:57.670 --> 30:01.310
So prosecution obviously plays a big part in this,

30:01.360 --> 30:05.560
right. So with the published application, you've got the document that

30:05.890 --> 30:10.050
the applicant filed. That kind of includes what the applicant

30:10.170 --> 30:13.814
wants. But the issue patents. The thing that has really gone through the

30:13.912 --> 30:17.622
machinery of prosecution and has kind of been whittled

30:17.646 --> 30:20.714
down to what the examiner has allowed. Is that correct?

30:20.872 --> 30:24.090
Yes. All the figures,

30:24.210 --> 30:28.646
all the text of the published application and

30:28.768 --> 30:32.020
the issued patent are the same,

30:32.350 --> 30:35.582
except for typos and small mistakes that

30:35.596 --> 30:39.642
are picked up. It's all the same except

30:39.666 --> 30:43.610
for the claims. And the difference is

30:43.720 --> 30:47.646
what you're looking there at is the aftermath

30:47.778 --> 30:51.870
of the argument between the examiner

30:51.990 --> 30:55.794
and the applicant, and there can be a degree of compromise.

30:55.842 --> 30:58.674
But basically the examiner wins.

30:58.842 --> 31:02.500
And what matters at the end of the day,

31:03.190 --> 31:07.758
in the formal sense is

31:07.784 --> 31:14.542
the claims as the issue in

31:14.556 --> 31:20.318
the granted part

31:20.344 --> 31:24.182
of the reason that the application is

31:24.256 --> 31:27.880
published at all before it issues

31:29.230 --> 31:32.798
in a way, this harmonizes the US with

31:32.884 --> 31:36.510
the rest of the world, but also basically serves

31:36.570 --> 31:39.950
the function, the constitutional purpose, which is

31:40.060 --> 31:44.322
to disclose so sort

31:44.336 --> 31:47.574
of a policy statement. It is

31:47.612 --> 31:51.654
possible to not have your app to ask

31:51.692 --> 31:55.438
the Patent office to not publish

31:55.594 --> 31:58.938
the application. And if you do

31:58.964 --> 32:02.862
that, then you're restricted to us because

32:02.936 --> 32:09.482
the rest of the world demands publication

32:09.566 --> 32:13.474
demands disclosure right off the bat. So you can avoid that

32:13.512 --> 32:17.722
in the US. But what you lose are

32:17.916 --> 32:21.120
your worldwide application,

32:22.230 --> 32:25.822
right? I think that's worth underscoring, too.

32:25.896 --> 32:29.978
We really like the flash danger signs wherever

32:30.014 --> 32:33.806
they exist, especially things that might not seem intuitive.

32:33.938 --> 32:37.834
And I think this is one of those places where just because

32:37.872 --> 32:41.350
you submitted patent application doesn't mean that you're going to get an issued

32:41.730 --> 32:45.566
patent, but without a non publication

32:45.698 --> 32:48.900
request, even if that patent doesn't issue,

32:49.590 --> 32:53.098
your disclosure is going to become a published application,

32:53.244 --> 32:56.794
even though it is not a granted patent. So even

32:56.832 --> 33:00.206
though you don't get the protection, the disclosure

33:00.278 --> 33:03.758
still happens without that without that request. So that's

33:03.794 --> 33:06.360
definitely like a sharp one or to be aware of.

33:07.830 --> 33:11.458
Right. All right. So there are different types of

33:11.484 --> 33:14.678
patent applications for different scenarios. Could you briefly

33:14.714 --> 33:18.060
describe the types of applications and when each would apply?

33:18.570 --> 33:22.430
Well, in the US, there's three basic

33:22.490 --> 33:25.500
types of applications. There's a utility application.

33:26.490 --> 33:29.342
There are design patent applications,

33:29.486 --> 33:32.590
and there are plant patent applications.

33:36.490 --> 33:40.446
Let's compare and contrast. So utility

33:40.518 --> 33:43.720
versus design a utility patent. I mean,

33:44.050 --> 33:48.098
when people talk casually about patents, they are almost always

33:48.184 --> 33:50.810
talking about utility patents.

33:51.130 --> 33:55.238
And the word utility suggests that

33:55.264 --> 33:58.010
these are useful inventions,

33:58.630 --> 34:02.414
and that might sound trivial. But it is

34:02.452 --> 34:05.838
one of the requirements. And compared

34:05.874 --> 34:07.370
to design patents,

34:09.070 --> 34:13.490
design patents are for decorative

34:13.870 --> 34:17.598
purposes without claiming

34:17.634 --> 34:22.580
any particular use.

34:23.450 --> 34:27.690
For example, tire trips. If you take a class in patents

34:28.370 --> 34:31.530
and they talk about design patents,

34:32.750 --> 34:34.760
tire treads are a good example,

34:35.690 --> 34:39.138
right? I mean, tire treads, they all

34:39.164 --> 34:42.762
look a little different. There's this egg and that SAG. These are important

34:42.836 --> 34:46.374
for certain companies because they want their product to be

34:46.412 --> 34:49.940
recognized by its design and

34:51.290 --> 34:54.594
plant patents. I mean,

34:54.632 --> 34:57.954
just a very specialized area, but it's very important

34:58.052 --> 35:02.130
for seed companies and commercial

35:03.350 --> 35:06.666
roses and peaches and stuff like that.

35:06.728 --> 35:10.110
But like I said,

35:10.220 --> 35:13.950
utility patents are the main event for most

35:14.000 --> 35:17.706
people, and there actually is another

35:17.768 --> 35:21.094
wrinkle. There's something like a baby

35:21.142 --> 35:25.146
utility. The provisional often

35:25.208 --> 35:27.860
looks very much like a regular application,

35:28.550 --> 35:32.854
but it's not prosecuted, and it just stays

35:32.962 --> 35:35.910
in the patent office as a placeholder.

35:41.130 --> 35:44.638
It records the fact that you have your invention in

35:44.664 --> 35:48.154
hand at the time of the filing of the Provisional. The provisional was

35:48.192 --> 35:52.406
something that was put in place some years ago in order to harmonize

35:52.478 --> 35:55.546
the US with every other country

35:55.608 --> 35:59.474
in the world because there were various differences regarding disclosure.

35:59.522 --> 36:03.300
So it's very common now,

36:04.590 --> 36:07.934
in fact, there's practically no reason not to file a provisional.

36:07.982 --> 36:09.010
A provisional.

36:11.950 --> 36:15.638
The cost of filing is basically zero or

36:15.664 --> 36:17.500
$130 or something,

36:20.690 --> 36:24.414
and it needs to be replaced. That's the

36:24.572 --> 36:28.760
verb that's used it needs to be replaced by a regular application

36:29.690 --> 36:33.078
within a year. So the purpose of a

36:33.104 --> 36:37.230
provisional is to avoid

36:38.570 --> 36:43.738
some of the hassle and some of the cost of filing

36:43.774 --> 36:47.010
a regular application and kicking the cost down the road,

36:47.180 --> 36:50.718
and it gives you a chance to think about whether or not you really want

36:50.744 --> 36:53.922
to pursue it or not,

36:54.056 --> 36:57.654
or if you want to add something, it's possible to add. You wouldn't get

36:57.692 --> 37:01.114
credit for the priority date of the professional,

37:01.162 --> 37:04.362
but I can

37:04.376 --> 37:08.982
tell you that every regular application I

37:09.056 --> 37:13.246
filed has been it starts with a provisional.

37:13.378 --> 37:16.280
It's temporary one year place order.

37:16.730 --> 37:20.490
That's very helpful, and I never appreciated

37:20.930 --> 37:24.522
where the utility name came from. It makes a lot of

37:24.536 --> 37:30.774
sense. The other thing that always threw me, too was that the

37:30.812 --> 37:34.222
primary application is prefaced with a negative.

37:34.366 --> 37:38.358
So you start with provisional, but the

37:38.384 --> 37:41.742
main event is the non provisional. And so where you want to

37:41.756 --> 37:45.262
go is led with a negative. And so that always kind of tripped

37:45.286 --> 37:49.650
me up a little bit. And understand people

37:49.700 --> 37:52.842
started calling it non provisional. I'm not sure who started.

37:52.916 --> 37:56.574
I just say regular because I also don't like

37:56.612 --> 37:58.050
the non provisional.

37:59.870 --> 38:03.320
I always just call it regular application. Yeah,

38:04.130 --> 38:07.818
it's confusing. It really is.

38:07.964 --> 38:11.998
So like you said, design and plant patents

38:12.034 --> 38:15.570
are definitely their own beast. And so we'll kind of save them,

38:15.620 --> 38:19.654
probably for another episode. And for the rest of our conversation,

38:19.702 --> 38:22.758
we're going to focus largely on provisional and

38:22.844 --> 38:27.838
utility patents. So without going into deep

38:27.874 --> 38:30.570
specifics on the sections which we'll cover shortly,

38:31.670 --> 38:35.610
how much do provisional and non provisional applications differ in

38:35.720 --> 38:39.594
form when we talk about the sections of an application

38:39.692 --> 38:43.590
coming up, do they both apply pretty equally?

38:44.330 --> 38:48.610
Well, the thing about Provisionals

38:48.790 --> 38:55.198
is that they

38:55.224 --> 38:57.890
don't enforce the format.

38:58.010 --> 38:58.680
Basically,

39:03.310 --> 39:08.102
it doesn't necessarily look like a

39:08.176 --> 39:09.520
regular application.

39:13.010 --> 39:14.960
When Provisionals first started,

39:16.430 --> 39:19.830
when they first came on the scene,

39:20.270 --> 39:23.874
I think in 1996 they

39:23.912 --> 39:27.718
were sort of abused, that people would take a picture

39:27.754 --> 39:31.498
of the whiteboard where they scribbled out their invention and file.

39:31.534 --> 39:36.994
That right. And that

39:37.032 --> 39:40.750
didn't work out so well because you can't really

39:40.800 --> 39:43.090
claim priority to a provisional,

39:43.890 --> 39:47.294
unless what you're talking about is in the provisional.

39:47.342 --> 39:50.518
So the quick

39:50.544 --> 39:53.950
and dirty provisional had its day,

39:54.120 --> 39:58.118
and I think scarcely

39:58.214 --> 40:01.990
exists anymore just because it wasn't working out

40:02.040 --> 40:05.674
very well. So in

40:05.712 --> 40:08.830
general, the trend in law firms,

40:10.110 --> 40:14.174
and I adhere to this, too, is that you try to make the provisional

40:14.342 --> 40:18.180
look as much like the regular application as possible.

40:18.750 --> 40:22.354
You might as well make your provisional look as much

40:22.392 --> 40:27.794
like the regular application as possible, because you're

40:27.842 --> 40:31.114
covering more ground, and it

40:31.152 --> 40:33.970
forces you to think more deeply.

40:35.190 --> 40:39.010
In general, if the provisional,

40:39.630 --> 40:43.534
it looks a lot like the regular, it means

40:43.632 --> 40:49.578
that you put your thought into it and it's

40:49.614 --> 40:53.342
more defensible. And if

40:53.356 --> 40:56.500
you want to show it to an investor, for example, it looks more real.

40:58.910 --> 41:02.358
The answer is the difference in how they

41:02.384 --> 41:06.262
look. It's just hard to say there's no rule

41:06.346 --> 41:09.798
for the format of a provisional. You can send in

41:09.944 --> 41:13.810
whatever you want, and chickens

41:13.930 --> 41:18.342
may come home to roost, but anyway,

41:18.476 --> 41:22.126
my practice. And I'm sure Ashley's practice and most people's practice

41:22.258 --> 41:26.238
is to make the provisional look

41:26.384 --> 41:30.260
like a regular application for the reasons I mentioned.

41:31.130 --> 41:34.880
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. We talk a lot about kind of

41:35.870 --> 41:39.106
cocktail napkin Fidelity being required

41:39.178 --> 41:42.382
for provisional. But you don't

41:42.406 --> 41:44.938
want to take that too far, like you said, and just send in a picture

41:44.974 --> 41:50.006
of the yeah. You don't want to take it literally.

41:50.078 --> 41:52.800
That's just a myth, right?

41:54.090 --> 41:57.478
Yeah. Don't do that. Yeah. Good. Like I said,

41:57.504 --> 42:00.360
it's a good forcing function. So now,

42:00.930 --> 42:04.762
out of the actual anatomical breakdown part we

42:04.776 --> 42:08.062
all been waiting for here. And I understand that

42:08.076 --> 42:11.554
the four main parts of a patent application are on the front

42:11.592 --> 42:15.446
or cover pages. Two, the drawings, three, the specification

42:15.578 --> 42:19.018
and four the claims. Can you walk me

42:19.044 --> 42:23.090
through the purpose of each what we might find in each and highlight

42:23.270 --> 42:26.460
any other important subsections? Big question.

42:26.850 --> 42:29.880
I sort of divided up between words and pictures. Right.

42:31.770 --> 42:35.182
You'll want the words and the pictures to fit together?

42:35.256 --> 42:40.946
They need to be consistent. And having

42:41.008 --> 42:45.230
said that one of the purposes of figures

42:46.510 --> 42:49.598
or data, I'm talking about figures, mainly. You can

42:49.624 --> 42:53.678
always have data also. But they

42:53.704 --> 42:55.660
say a picture is worth 1000 words.

42:57.790 --> 43:00.280
It depends on the subject matter. Right.

43:01.210 --> 43:05.022
But for many types of applications,

43:05.166 --> 43:08.714
the figures can basically function as

43:08.752 --> 43:11.920
a storyboard. You should be able to.

43:14.110 --> 43:17.642
If you were going to explain your invention to someone else,

43:17.776 --> 43:21.578
you should be able to just March through the figures and

43:21.604 --> 43:25.710
often figure one or one of the early figures is sort of a big picture,

43:25.890 --> 43:29.680
so figures vary in terms of their level of detail.

43:30.850 --> 43:34.480
You've all seen the picture. Here's our device. Here's the cloud.

43:35.050 --> 43:38.726
Here's the server here's sort of big

43:38.788 --> 43:41.642
picture cartoon of the whole thing.

43:41.836 --> 43:45.582
And then you slice it up into smaller pieces.

43:45.726 --> 43:49.442
And here's a closeup of this. And here it is from the top. And here

43:49.456 --> 43:53.078
it is from the bottom. And so

43:53.104 --> 43:53.680
on.

43:57.290 --> 44:03.034
The big pieces. Like we've mentioned, there's the

44:03.072 --> 44:06.958
text and the various sections are

44:06.984 --> 44:11.400
the abstract and the claims and

44:11.730 --> 44:13.870
the rest of the written description.

44:19.030 --> 44:23.642
It's helpful to think of how a patent application gets

44:23.716 --> 44:27.602
written. And most people and the way I write is that basically

44:27.676 --> 44:31.060
you start with the claims, right. Blank piece of paper.

44:33.470 --> 44:38.638
You can start with the title, but you

44:38.664 --> 44:42.722
start with the claims because it's

44:42.746 --> 44:46.522
like an academic paper. Things can change. But in general,

44:46.656 --> 44:50.282
if you're writing an academic paper, you sort of know your conclusion,

44:50.366 --> 44:54.300
right. And you write the paper

44:56.130 --> 44:59.662
with the intention of supporting the conclusion. So in a

44:59.676 --> 45:02.890
patent application where you want to end up

45:03.000 --> 45:06.754
with our claims. And so that's where you start. You start,

45:06.852 --> 45:10.690
you start at the end and then from the claims,

45:11.910 --> 45:15.974
a couple of other things follow. The abstract

45:16.082 --> 45:19.618
should reflect the

45:19.644 --> 45:23.458
claims. Often the abstract is

45:23.484 --> 45:27.050
just a narrative version of the first independent

45:27.110 --> 45:30.010
claim. The summary,

45:30.450 --> 45:34.550
which comes along after the abstract.

45:34.730 --> 45:38.062
Well, depending on it comes at the end of the application,

45:38.136 --> 45:41.974
but it's also on the front page. But the summary in

45:42.012 --> 45:46.030
general is a narrative version of

45:46.200 --> 45:49.618
the claims. So claims are written in

45:49.644 --> 45:54.358
kind of an arcane style and for

45:54.384 --> 45:57.370
readability and general consumption,

45:59.370 --> 46:02.930
the claims can be converted into more conventional

46:03.050 --> 46:06.720
narrative. So that's what the summary is.

46:07.050 --> 46:11.290
And then there's also a section called

46:11.400 --> 46:14.738
Brief Description of the Figures or Brief description

46:14.774 --> 46:18.538
of the drawings. And those

46:18.564 --> 46:22.282
are basically like figure Legends. Figure one shows this and

46:22.296 --> 46:25.942
this and this. Usually the paragraph and a

46:25.956 --> 46:29.770
brief description of the drawings are just one sentence.

46:33.690 --> 46:36.934
If you're reading the patent application, it's useful. Okay.

46:36.972 --> 46:40.750
Here's the figure. You want to be also looking at the brief description,

46:41.130 --> 46:44.410
and that's how to understand

46:44.520 --> 46:45.180
it.

46:48.190 --> 46:52.242
And then, in general, the body of the it's

46:52.266 --> 46:56.318
called the detailed description. Usually this makes up the

46:56.344 --> 47:00.270
bulk of the application, you know,

47:00.380 --> 47:03.954
a narrative. I mean, there's no

47:03.992 --> 47:06.990
particular order, but in general and for readability,

47:09.810 --> 47:14.030
the written description follows the order of the figures.

47:14.090 --> 47:17.314
So figure one AB

47:17.412 --> 47:20.806
C show this and this and this and you describe it.

47:20.868 --> 47:24.538
And you know, there's part numbers, and you

47:24.564 --> 47:26.460
just sort of March through the application,

47:27.990 --> 47:30.720
explaining the figures and how it all fits together,

47:31.830 --> 47:34.020
connecting one figure to the next.

47:37.870 --> 47:39.940
I mentioned this before, right.

47:41.950 --> 47:45.530
Some people really don't take the background seriously,

47:46.510 --> 47:50.082
but if the patent application is written

47:50.106 --> 47:53.934
to be informative and respectful of the reader, the background

47:53.982 --> 47:55.780
is not a bad place to start.

47:57.610 --> 48:01.780
It gives you the context and into that the

48:03.370 --> 48:06.482
invention should fit. Okay.

48:06.676 --> 48:09.150
There's another word. It's called specification.

48:09.270 --> 48:12.770
Specification, actually, is the application

48:12.940 --> 48:16.718
in its entirety. All the words, all the pictures. That's the

48:16.744 --> 48:20.258
specification. Yeah. Does that sort

48:20.284 --> 48:23.210
of cover the basics?

48:23.710 --> 48:27.258
I think so. Yeah. We're kind of logically

48:27.354 --> 48:30.854
separating specification from claims a little bit

48:30.892 --> 48:36.602
in our discussion, mainly because there

48:36.616 --> 48:39.662
are a handful of fields that you talked about, like the title and field of

48:39.676 --> 48:43.350
invention and background and summary and the description of drawings,

48:43.470 --> 48:47.282
the abstract stuff like that. That a

48:47.296 --> 48:51.580
lot of those things in aggregate, sort of

48:52.030 --> 48:55.698
provide context for interpreting the claims

48:55.734 --> 48:58.958
section. So there's some utility, I think,

48:58.984 --> 49:02.642
in grouping those things together a little bit and helping to set the

49:02.656 --> 49:06.314
reader up for understanding the claims. To the best of

49:06.352 --> 49:10.862
my understanding, this was actually a little bit of a surprise to me that in

49:10.876 --> 49:14.166
terms of establishing that context, because pants

49:14.178 --> 49:17.582
are describing new things, they actually provide

49:17.776 --> 49:22.660
some flexibility before you get into the claims on

49:23.170 --> 49:25.660
how your terms are defined. Yeah.

49:27.310 --> 49:30.518
That's part of the story. If you want to

49:30.544 --> 49:33.460
use a word in a particular way,

49:34.450 --> 49:38.078
then you can. I mean, if you're using it in an

49:38.104 --> 49:39.220
unusual way,

49:41.810 --> 49:44.538
then you really need to explain it.

49:44.564 --> 49:48.598
Or occasionally there will be a patent

49:48.634 --> 49:51.260
application with a word you don't even know. Right.

49:53.330 --> 49:58.098
So there is that freedom. Lexicographer means you

49:58.124 --> 49:59.480
can write your own words.

50:03.690 --> 50:07.500
It won't work. You can't call a fork a spoon. For example,

50:11.710 --> 50:15.570
you can't use an entirely wrong word that doesn't fly.

50:15.750 --> 50:19.350
In general, the patent

50:19.410 --> 50:21.470
application requires.

50:22.630 --> 50:26.798
It relies on the

50:26.824 --> 50:30.374
plain meaning of the word, especially to someone in the art. I mean,

50:30.472 --> 50:33.618
you don't have to define everything if it's

50:33.654 --> 50:36.650
already well understood in the art.

50:36.760 --> 50:41.106
And so you don't need to define every technical

50:41.178 --> 50:44.618
word. And in fact, there are some people who sort

50:44.644 --> 50:48.242
of purposefully don't define a

50:48.256 --> 50:51.494
word they think is well known because the concern is, well,

50:51.532 --> 50:55.394
one, you're taking up extra space, and the other is maybe

50:55.432 --> 50:58.898
there's an exception. So if you define it and then you want to

50:58.924 --> 51:02.642
use it in a different way, then you're sort of stuck with what you have.

51:02.716 --> 51:07.180
But, yeah, the application is

51:09.190 --> 51:12.654
to look into the mind of the inventor or the patent

51:12.702 --> 51:16.840
writer. And sometimes a new word or

51:17.650 --> 51:21.938
a word used in a slightly different way or a

51:21.964 --> 51:26.442
word used in a way that helps

51:26.466 --> 51:29.570
the invention to make sense, then.

51:29.620 --> 51:33.182
Yeah. You're your own lexicographer. It's kind of

51:33.196 --> 51:36.306
nice. Right. It's a good thing if you're

51:36.318 --> 51:38.980
trying to define things that are novel, not obvious,

51:39.670 --> 51:43.926
effectively new. Sometimes that comes with some new vocabulary.

51:44.058 --> 51:47.666
Right. Or you can take an existing word

51:47.848 --> 51:53.454
and use it to your own particular end.

51:53.552 --> 51:56.862
Right. A lot of

51:56.936 --> 51:59.130
words. They have different meanings.

52:02.970 --> 52:06.058
You could have a little device that, for whatever reason,

52:06.144 --> 52:09.026
has a part that looks like a chimney.

52:09.098 --> 52:11.350
Right. Well, it's actually not a chimney.

52:12.570 --> 52:16.442
There's no smoke coming out of it or anything, but it looks like a chimney.

52:16.586 --> 52:19.380
So then you can call it a chimney, right?

52:22.690 --> 52:25.718
Yeah. There's a lot of flexibility, but you just have to

52:25.744 --> 52:28.840
make sure you're being clear about what you're talking about.

52:29.530 --> 52:32.822
Sure. So let's talk

52:32.836 --> 52:35.298
a little bit more about claims. I think it's worth going a little bit deeper

52:35.334 --> 52:41.658
on a handful of things just because it

52:41.684 --> 52:45.186
comes at the end. Right. But you're talking about writing it first.

52:45.368 --> 52:46.820
It's the heart of the application.

52:48.710 --> 52:51.954
I heard you once used a great metaphor about

52:51.992 --> 52:56.418
those with the Old West. Would you mind sharing that? Especially as

52:56.444 --> 53:00.800
we break down some of this vocabulary. Like, why are some of these words used?

53:02.030 --> 53:05.802
I think sometimes that history. Sometimes those metaphors can

53:05.816 --> 53:06.630
be helpful.

53:09.030 --> 53:10.800
Yeah. Right.

53:13.330 --> 53:15.770
The metaphor I used is the analogy.

53:16.990 --> 53:21.438
Everyone has seen a Western. And there's

53:21.474 --> 53:25.014
the minor out there in the mountains digging a hole, and he strikes

53:25.062 --> 53:28.338
it rich, and he drops his spade in his bucket

53:28.374 --> 53:31.998
and he runs into the claims office. Right. It's in town.

53:32.034 --> 53:35.198
There's a guy behind the desk. And what

53:35.224 --> 53:39.158
he wants to do is lay claim to

53:39.184 --> 53:42.590
that mine, which means that he can work it

53:42.760 --> 53:46.418
and no one else can. And the reason he

53:46.444 --> 53:49.982
has that privilege is because he discovered it. So you

53:49.996 --> 53:52.970
go to the claims office, you would draw a map.

53:54.550 --> 53:59.510
It's between the Lake and the mountains and the Prairie. And there's

54:00.070 --> 54:03.494
this landmark and so on. And then

54:03.532 --> 54:06.854
you become more specific. Right. You draw a square, you draw

54:06.892 --> 54:10.490
a circle on the map around what you're claiming.

54:10.870 --> 54:14.440
So what you have there is

54:15.130 --> 54:18.698
you have the particulars of

54:18.724 --> 54:42.182
the mind, and you put

54:42.196 --> 54:45.278
it in a context that can be used this way. It can be used that

54:45.304 --> 54:47.260
way and so on and so on.

54:49.790 --> 54:54.910
But you need to become more specific and

54:55.020 --> 54:59.206
claim the boundaries. The boundaries of

54:59.388 --> 55:01.690
what you believe is your invention,

55:03.810 --> 55:07.140
the Old West, the mine. To me, it works extremely well.

55:07.710 --> 55:11.410
That's intuitive. And it sort of transfers pretty

55:11.460 --> 55:15.060
directly into the

55:15.750 --> 55:18.300
role of the claims in the application.

55:22.330 --> 55:25.566
Yeah. Clear delineation of the boundaries.

55:25.638 --> 55:30.762
Right. I think it's a great visual.

55:30.906 --> 55:34.554
Yeah. So the main purpose

55:34.602 --> 55:38.978
of the claim is

55:39.004 --> 55:42.820
to be able to exclude others. Right.

55:44.110 --> 55:49.650
The question of does

55:49.700 --> 55:53.634
the claim exclude that

55:53.672 --> 55:56.454
other guy and what he's doing, right?

55:56.612 --> 56:00.258
You don't want people intruding on. You don't want

56:00.284 --> 56:04.542
them infringing your property. In this case, your property

56:04.676 --> 56:07.940
is intangible. It's a patent application.

56:08.450 --> 56:13.702
It's a patent. So what

56:13.716 --> 56:17.902
it comes down to is, let's say the

56:17.916 --> 56:20.520
inventor, the applicant, the company says, hey,

56:21.630 --> 56:24.886
that product that looks a

56:24.888 --> 56:27.818
lot like ours, and we think you're infringing.

56:27.854 --> 56:31.738
Well, so the question comes down to

56:31.764 --> 56:36.158
the independent claim, and we can talk about independent and dependent

56:36.314 --> 56:39.310
in a second. But let's just call it the claim.

56:45.970 --> 56:49.730
Here's an example of a claim. I claim a gadget

56:50.290 --> 56:53.294
that includes piece A, piece,

56:53.332 --> 56:56.270
B and PC, you know,

56:56.320 --> 56:58.720
a gadget, including a B and C.

57:01.550 --> 57:06.140
And so if you look at the product that

57:06.770 --> 57:10.398
you think is infringing, you look at it and you ask the

57:10.424 --> 57:13.614
question, does that device have

57:13.712 --> 57:17.178
everything that I've just claimed? Does it

57:17.204 --> 57:20.310
have A? Does it have B? Does it have a C?

57:20.360 --> 57:22.160
Does it fit together the same way?

57:27.450 --> 57:31.510
If the other product has all of those elements,

57:32.730 --> 57:36.050
then it looks like it's infringing. It's.

57:36.110 --> 57:38.880
That simple. It doesn't matter.

57:41.170 --> 57:44.438
In this instance. It doesn't matter if the

57:44.464 --> 57:47.140
device also has D. Right.

57:49.270 --> 57:53.878
The inventor says it's

57:53.914 --> 57:57.402
true. It has a B and C, but it also has B. Well,

57:57.476 --> 58:01.758
I mean, that's great. Then you should apply for a patent application for A-B-C,

58:01.784 --> 58:04.986
and B. But the fact remains, it has a, B and C.

58:05.048 --> 58:09.150
So that's sort of how the claims

58:09.470 --> 58:14.734
are used in

58:14.772 --> 58:18.874
guarding your monopoly and exercising your

58:18.912 --> 58:22.546
right to exclude going back to the one of the things I first mentioned,

58:22.608 --> 58:26.350
you don't really have the right patent application. Really doesn't.

58:26.850 --> 58:30.710
Sorry. A patent does give you the right to practice your invention,

58:30.770 --> 58:34.570
but it gives you the right to exclude others from what you have

58:34.620 --> 58:38.002
claimed. I mean, that's a

58:38.016 --> 58:41.290
nuance that's difficult to grasp,

58:43.930 --> 58:47.118
but that's the deal with claims.

58:47.214 --> 58:50.858
One thing I want to go back to a little bit because it's still something.

58:50.944 --> 58:54.234
It's a point of confusion in my mind. So I suspect

58:54.282 --> 58:57.758
that it could be the same for some

58:57.784 --> 59:01.662
folks in the audience. But you were talking a little bit about infringement

59:01.806 --> 59:05.118
with claims. I'm sure this is a huge topic.

59:05.274 --> 59:08.294
That could be probably many episodes of its own,

59:08.392 --> 59:12.458
but I guess the thing that's not super clear to me is

59:12.604 --> 59:15.700
if you write a claim and it claims things A, B and C,

59:17.050 --> 59:20.354
what does constitute infringement? Does somebody have to

59:20.392 --> 59:24.542
infringe upon A, B and C, or can they just infringe on

59:24.676 --> 59:26.560
some portion of those?

59:28.450 --> 59:31.874
At what point can I say someone is, in fact, infringing upon my

59:31.912 --> 59:35.418
claims? If someone is infringing on your claims,

59:35.454 --> 59:38.800
that means that you believe that

59:40.090 --> 59:42.940
they are practicing A, B and C,

59:43.510 --> 59:46.958
they're doing the entirety of

59:46.984 --> 59:50.020
the independent claim. Everything.

59:52.150 --> 59:55.550
That's the deal. Interesting. So if someone

59:55.600 --> 59:59.762
were just to take a look at my patent and piecemeal out just

59:59.956 --> 1:00:03.710
A and B on the path to doing

1:00:03.760 --> 1:00:06.954
something else, I wouldn't have very strong grounds

1:00:07.002 --> 1:00:10.514
for an infringement suit at that point. If they're only doing A and B,

1:00:10.552 --> 1:00:12.950
they're not doing C, then they're not infringing.

1:00:15.130 --> 1:00:17.858
That's true. That's the answer.

1:00:18.004 --> 1:00:21.580
Interesting. Okay. I didn't know that. Yeah.

1:00:22.270 --> 1:00:25.374
This is why there's so much writing on the claims.

1:00:25.422 --> 1:00:29.174
Particularly. I need to explain the difference.

1:00:29.332 --> 1:00:32.922
I keep saying independent claim, and that's in contrast

1:00:32.946 --> 1:00:36.484
to dependent claims, but 90%

1:00:36.504 --> 1:00:40.334
of the intellectual exercise is

1:00:40.372 --> 1:00:44.330
writing the claims, and it's because you're trying to foresee

1:00:46.850 --> 1:00:48.860
these eventualities, right?

1:00:51.390 --> 1:00:55.174
You're trying to write the claim so as to

1:00:55.212 --> 1:00:59.458
capture as many possible infringers as

1:00:59.484 --> 1:01:02.638
you can just wanted

1:01:02.664 --> 1:01:05.938
to make the point. Writing the claims is the

1:01:05.964 --> 1:01:09.974
main intellectual effort of writing

1:01:10.022 --> 1:01:15.814
up a patent application. And once

1:01:15.852 --> 1:01:20.174
inventors sort of catch on, they begin to think in terms of claims.

1:01:20.342 --> 1:01:21.060
Also,

1:01:24.210 --> 1:01:28.190
just as a central intellectual

1:01:28.310 --> 1:01:31.150
organizing practical principle,

1:01:32.250 --> 1:01:34.838
most of the focus is on the claims.

1:01:34.994 --> 1:01:39.434
So let me explain something else, because I mentioned this briefly. There's independent

1:01:39.482 --> 1:01:43.634
claims and there's dependent claims. So an independent claim

1:01:43.802 --> 1:01:48.394
almost always starts with an

1:01:48.432 --> 1:01:53.974
indefinite article A or an A

1:01:54.012 --> 1:01:58.762
gadget having so it's not really

1:01:58.896 --> 1:02:03.466
referring to some specific individual

1:02:03.528 --> 1:02:07.190
gadget. It's talking about a general gadget.

1:02:07.250 --> 1:02:10.800
So you got your gadget with A, B and C.

1:02:11.370 --> 1:02:14.546
That's what you're claiming as your independent claim.

1:02:14.678 --> 1:02:18.614
But that's not really the end, because it's

1:02:18.662 --> 1:02:22.342
true. I mean, your gadget might also include D,

1:02:22.416 --> 1:02:26.018
right. But you don't regard D as being really that essential

1:02:26.114 --> 1:02:29.338
to the invention. So you could have a dependent claim where

1:02:29.364 --> 1:02:33.150
you would say E gadget.

1:02:33.210 --> 1:02:36.842
So notice I've switched from the independent claim was

1:02:37.036 --> 1:02:39.894
a dependent claim claim.

1:02:39.942 --> 1:02:42.858
Two, the gadget of claim.

1:02:42.894 --> 1:02:48.598
One further, including what's

1:02:48.634 --> 1:02:51.942
required in your invention and what

1:02:51.956 --> 1:02:55.522
you would be looking for as an infringer

1:02:55.606 --> 1:02:58.954
would be all the elements of the independent claim.

1:02:59.122 --> 1:03:01.760
The dependent claims sort of recite options.

1:03:02.150 --> 1:03:05.922
They're not necessarily a

1:03:05.936 --> 1:03:09.222
part of your invention. They're not part of

1:03:09.236 --> 1:03:13.462
the independent claim and an infringing

1:03:13.606 --> 1:03:17.058
product, wouldn't you know, as long as it had

1:03:17.084 --> 1:03:20.650
a B and C, it would be infringing trying to summarize the independent

1:03:20.710 --> 1:03:24.810
claim is the very bare bones of your invention,

1:03:25.610 --> 1:03:29.118
and it distinguishes from the prior art. It's new, it's different.

1:03:29.204 --> 1:03:33.150
And here's the basic elements. It can also include

1:03:33.590 --> 1:03:37.100
these optional elements and those

1:03:37.670 --> 1:03:41.610
come on as dependent claims. So typically

1:03:42.650 --> 1:03:45.200
a conventional patent application,

1:03:46.190 --> 1:03:49.806
you might have one independent claim and

1:03:49.868 --> 1:03:53.780
20 dependent claims. The dependent claims all

1:03:54.110 --> 1:03:57.454
fall from the independent claim.

1:03:57.622 --> 1:04:01.378
This is a lot. This is a lot to absorb.

1:04:01.474 --> 1:04:04.594
It is, David, that was such a great explanation.

1:04:04.642 --> 1:04:07.974
I'm glad that we talked about independent dependent claims after we talked

1:04:08.012 --> 1:04:11.770
about infringement, because that's actually the clearest

1:04:11.950 --> 1:04:15.834
explanation. I've heard it's the clearest it's ever been in my head.

1:04:15.932 --> 1:04:21.802
And I hope, too, that folks appreciate you

1:04:21.816 --> 1:04:25.342
think about the word application and the word form comes to mind. And when

1:04:25.356 --> 1:04:27.120
the word form comes to mind,

1:04:28.990 --> 1:04:33.162
you think about just kind of monotonous, tedious data entry.

1:04:33.246 --> 1:04:36.638
And there's so much art and so

1:04:36.664 --> 1:04:40.540
much strategy that goes into this at every step

1:04:41.470 --> 1:04:42.700
along the way.

1:04:47.290 --> 1:04:51.318
Again, before I kind of got into this world, I don't think I fully

1:04:51.354 --> 1:04:54.870
appreciated that, but there's so much strategy,

1:04:54.930 --> 1:04:58.382
so much nuance. And those

1:04:58.456 --> 1:05:02.462
little decisions that are made now can have huge

1:05:02.536 --> 1:05:06.770
impacts on the long term viability

1:05:07.330 --> 1:05:10.660
of this patent in terms of your ability to

1:05:11.410 --> 1:05:15.278
defend your rights in terms of infringement and

1:05:15.364 --> 1:05:18.150
your ability to retain your rights,

1:05:18.270 --> 1:05:21.518
if ever faced with validation and all

1:05:21.544 --> 1:05:24.998
these things flow into that. I'm glad it was

1:05:25.024 --> 1:05:28.350
helpful. I mean, I can tell you the next time you look at a patent

1:05:28.410 --> 1:05:31.538
application or a patent, you'll feel

1:05:31.564 --> 1:05:35.080
more at home. Right. Exactly.

1:05:36.130 --> 1:05:39.400
You got your will patent utility belt. I know.

1:05:40.330 --> 1:05:43.502
So we hinted at some of this a little bit earlier, but I just want

1:05:43.516 --> 1:05:47.260
to make sure because I like folks to leave with really strong

1:05:48.250 --> 1:05:51.962
useful takeaways. So we've talked a lot about what you can find in a

1:05:51.976 --> 1:05:55.758
patent because it's

1:05:55.914 --> 1:05:59.822
public resource. Right. So where all can I find patents and get access

1:05:59.896 --> 1:06:03.290
to this wealth of information? I think that Google patents

1:06:04.030 --> 1:06:06.760
is the best place to start. It's free.

1:06:10.370 --> 1:06:12.440
There's two levels to the site.

1:06:13.910 --> 1:06:17.360
One is just I forget, just like

1:06:17.690 --> 1:06:21.294
the conventional Google

1:06:21.392 --> 1:06:24.930
search bar you put in whatever keywords

1:06:25.370 --> 1:06:29.502
you want there. There's an advanced form

1:06:29.576 --> 1:06:33.594
of it. It'll be there on the page.

1:06:33.752 --> 1:06:38.838
Another link go to the advanced, and it

1:06:38.864 --> 1:06:43.258
has different fields. In a way, this is where knowing

1:06:43.294 --> 1:06:47.866
the anatomy of the patent becomes

1:06:48.058 --> 1:06:52.230
helpful because the patent is

1:06:52.280 --> 1:06:55.974
built up section by section. And if you're looking

1:06:56.012 --> 1:06:59.694
at a search site, they're called field. So, for example, there's a field

1:06:59.852 --> 1:07:04.830
for the abstract. And so you can search

1:07:04.880 --> 1:07:08.206
for your keyword in abstracts.

1:07:08.338 --> 1:07:11.780
Or you could be looking for a company.

1:07:12.110 --> 1:07:16.570
Right. What is the Acme

1:07:16.630 --> 1:07:19.854
Plumbing Company? What have they invented recently? So then you can search

1:07:19.892 --> 1:07:24.498
for the assignee or maybe an

1:07:24.524 --> 1:07:28.422
inventor. So then you can search on the inventor name.

1:07:28.496 --> 1:07:31.700
That's how you find stuff.

1:07:32.690 --> 1:07:36.034
I mean, there is a cost to searching,

1:07:36.202 --> 1:07:39.642
because Google as good as it

1:07:39.656 --> 1:07:43.578
is, it is limited compared to

1:07:43.604 --> 1:07:46.078
these larger subscription databases,

1:07:46.234 --> 1:07:50.694
which give you more fields and more detail on

1:07:50.732 --> 1:07:54.380
and on. The patents are free,

1:07:54.710 --> 1:07:59.058
and you get the PDF, but actually

1:07:59.144 --> 1:08:03.294
finding them takes a little bit of work. But yeah,

1:08:03.332 --> 1:08:06.978
it's paid databases, and it's Google, and there may be one

1:08:07.124 --> 1:08:10.114
or two other search sites.

1:08:10.282 --> 1:08:14.446
And then, of course, there's the searching directly with the USPTO

1:08:14.638 --> 1:08:19.066
USPTO dot com and then access to public pair

1:08:19.258 --> 1:08:22.674
as well. I think you have the serial number at that point

1:08:22.712 --> 1:08:25.542
before you can dig into public pair. So you have to kind of use one

1:08:25.556 --> 1:08:29.022
of the searches first to get to that

1:08:29.036 --> 1:08:32.266
point. Yeah. Correct. Yeah. Prepare.

1:08:32.398 --> 1:08:35.120
You need the serial number, the publication number?

1:08:36.930 --> 1:08:39.660
Yeah. You sort of need to know it already.

1:08:40.710 --> 1:08:44.590
To get the full dossier from Pair.

1:08:44.910 --> 1:08:48.890
They divide it up, by the way, between issued patents

1:08:48.950 --> 1:08:52.210
and patent applications.

1:08:54.030 --> 1:08:57.002
This sort of goes back to what I was saying. It's such a resource.

1:08:57.086 --> 1:09:01.054
It's free. It's like the Library of Alexandria, but you

1:09:01.092 --> 1:09:03.540
sort of need how to work it.

1:09:04.230 --> 1:09:08.278
Yeah, for sure. And like you said, too, of course, you can use

1:09:08.424 --> 1:09:11.530
practitioners and search firms like ours, too,

1:09:11.580 --> 1:09:15.962
for results, access to more databases and some expert

1:09:15.986 --> 1:09:19.906
analysis sprinkled on top of that. Like we mentioned, some of the stuff is behind

1:09:19.968 --> 1:09:24.238
pay walls and things, so it just kind of depends on how

1:09:24.264 --> 1:09:28.090
deep you want to go, but there are always more options.

1:09:28.260 --> 1:09:31.560
All right. I think we got everything.

1:09:32.610 --> 1:09:36.298
We got everything and then some unless either of you could think of anything else

1:09:36.324 --> 1:09:40.042
that I didn't ask. That seems like a pretty solid primer to

1:09:40.056 --> 1:09:43.378
me on patent anatomy. Thank you both so much for your

1:09:43.404 --> 1:09:46.850
time. I think this context is going to be incredibly

1:09:46.910 --> 1:09:50.954
valuable, especially for folks newer to the process. And selfishly.

1:09:51.122 --> 1:09:52.920
I know I got a lot out of it.

1:09:54.630 --> 1:09:58.560
Okay. Yeah. It's good

1:10:00.150 --> 1:10:04.046
even for me. And for Ashley, it's good to go back to basics

1:10:04.118 --> 1:10:08.758
right now and then just read

1:10:08.784 --> 1:10:09.840
the good book.

1:10:12.730 --> 1:10:15.460
Let's talk about the Constitution, right?

1:10:15.850 --> 1:10:19.610
There's the word, right? Yeah. And it's capitalized.

1:10:20.650 --> 1:10:23.030
Yeah. It's a good exercise.

1:10:24.550 --> 1:10:27.820
The patent gospel according to David and Ashley. Yeah.

1:10:28.870 --> 1:10:31.718
Right. Yeah. That's the word.

1:10:31.864 --> 1:10:35.140
Yeah. Right. Perfect. Well, take care, everybody.

1:10:36.370 --> 1:10:40.190
All right. Thanks. Oh, thank you, too. Yeah. All right.

1:10:40.240 --> 1:10:43.382
That's all for today, folks. Thanks for listening. And remember to check us out at

1:10:43.396 --> 1:10:46.802
aurorapatins. Com for more great podcasts, blogs and videos

1:10:46.876 --> 1:10:50.462
covering all things patent strategy. And if you're an agent or attorney and

1:10:50.476 --> 1:10:53.166
would like to be part of the discussion or an venture with the topic you'd

1:10:53.178 --> 1:10:56.682
like to hear discussed, email us at podcast at aurorapatins.

1:10:56.766 --> 1:11:00.614
Com. Do remember that this podcast does not constitute legal advice and until

1:11:00.652 --> 1:11:03.330
next time. Keep calm and patent on bye.